Rfalconcam Forum

Donna DT watchers; do you think there is some kind of territorial feud going on?  Archer has been so absent, and poor Beauty looks ready...

I think we're all trying to figure out what's going on, margaret.  But only Beauty knows for sure...

Archer has been around...and so has Beauty.  Not as often as I think we'd all like, but...

I don't know that there's a real problem.  Beauty is tending the egg as she would at this point in a "normal" schedule clutch.  Since she's not full time incubating, she thinks there are more eggs to come.  A review of other peregrine history shows several other instances of long gaps between eggs for one reason or another with all eggs eventually hatching just fine.  So, we just have to wait & see how the story unfolds.

I'm sorry...I didn't mean to alarm anyone with my question.   I guess I'm not used to it being almost a week between eggs.  Beauty laid that first egg last Friday night.  Maybe she is waiting for Donna's visit on Friday!   :happy:

Don't apologize, margaret!  Absolutely nothing to be sorry about!  You're just voicing what many people are thinking...which is why we already started researching "Has this ever happened before?" so that our answers can be as factual as possible.

Could also be some reproductive issues with one of the two.  Archer is a migrating bird, if he goes to South America - they still use DDT quite heavily in some areas down there...or he could have been down in the Gulf and been affected by the spill.  

 It's too bad you didn't have access to where the other female is...could identify if it's Archer that is there and see if she's having any luck with eggs or if the situation is similar.

Also can't help but wonder if it's not stress on Beauty's part, can't be easy to wait months for your mate to come home and have to potentially share him.  Since it's not a common situation, I can't help but wonder if that's because not all females will tolerate it so easily.  I really feel for Beauty, she's such a beautiful and strong falcon.  She expends alot of energy on her own all winter defending and holding the site, even though falcons are strong - it can't be easy.

Hmmmm...just trying to get up to speed since I last checked in almost three hours ago.   I kept a pretty good eye on the nest up to 7:30 or so --whenever my last post was.  Now reading back through some posts, just want to run this by all of you.     I saw that  B left NB at around 7:50, or 7:49 as Ei, I think, reported.  I had been keeping an eye on the nest pretty closely since 4 pm or so, right up until 8 pm.    Beauty  had definitely been alone during the time I was watching.   At around 7:30, Joyce posted that there were two at KP on the stills.   At 7:51, Kris G reported that B was callling for A at the NB.   
At 8:18, MAK reported that A was on the NB ledge.    At 8:24, Carol P reported that only 1 at KP, and the  2nd one had "left awhile ago, heading south".   
TS is south of KP.  The time frame fits.   Is anyone else having the same thoughts?
I had some of the same thoughts as "Bird Crazy"  and Carly -- the stress, the migration, the  "egg-binding", as I too had a wonderful bird that experienced egg-binding. 
It also seems kind of "quiet" from our wonderful watchers on the street.  I know that as Ei said, you are trying to get the facts straight, but MAK, Carol, Joyce, Dana; do  you have any thought about what you are seeing "on the Street"? 

Margaret, read Carol's report, just now!

Yes, I did, just read Carol's blog post. That's what I get for coming home from work, and not checking the blogs before I read the posts.     Thanks for posting!

Now another question:  have there been instances when nests/eggs have been abandoned in such cases as this where the male visits two nest sites?  I know that there have been instances where males support two nest sites, but A has been scarce at NB lately.  At least it seems that way to me and I keep an eye on the NB througout the day.
All of these questions are popping up -- how long can egg sit as this one is -- un-brooded before it is not viable?  Is there a time frame?
Is there a viable nesting spot at KP?  I think a possible site was mentioned in a post this week.   
Is there any chance KP security would cooperate with watchers to allow a closer watch?
Sorry for all the questions, but after watching our Beauty all winter -- survive, and thrive, and have fun with Mr. T, and the  return of Archer , this is an unexpected turn.

Margaret - I know you and everyone else is concerned.  The Watchers have been quiet lately because we've been trying to figure out what was happening.  We didn't want to report until we were fairly certain that it was Archer.

I can't answer all your questions about the viability of the egg and history of this happening before.  Ei has posted quite a bit about this over the last couple days.  I'm sure she has more information to share.   ;)   Every situation is different.

There are quite a few potential nest sites at KP.  Both Falcons have been seen at different spots, including the ORB, an Orange Railing Bldg that they seem to like.  There are other spots that might be suited to raising Peregrine young.  No copulation has been witnessed between Archer and Lady Pefa.  They do a lot of flying around and I've actually seen them tandem hunt.  He seems really interested in food when he's there.  We have heard them ee-chupping.

We will definitely keep Watching!

Thanks, Carol , and all of you watching. 

Joyce and I asked Kodak security tonight if we could get closer for ID purposes and they said we would have to get ok from our original contact. So I believe CarolP will be asking whomever gave us permission in the first place. I must admit I've been in denial that Archer was doing this but after viewing pics last nite that Joyce had taken I was absolutely convinced it was him. We all need to be patient and hope that things work out. We all feel bad for Beauty but this is a part of nature that isn't easy to take. We can all learn from this and that's what the forum is all about. Educating about the life of Peregrine Falcons be it good or bad.  :heart:

You are right, MAK.  It is an education. I have learned so much from watching the falcons. Although, who knew it would turn into a soap opera or falcon Jerry Springer?  :wub:
This is waayyy past my bed time. 

Indeed, I have done some research, but need to get to work now.  I'll try to sneak in during the day & post it.  If not, as soon as I get home.

I wish there were some way to even make an educated guess on whether there is some environmental issue.  More likely just a stress reaction on Beauty's part, though what the exact stressor actually is is anyone's guess.  Is Archer actually 2 timing?  Could he be trying to keep Lady Pefa away from downtown?  Has she (LP) been visiting downtown or can Beauty see her from high up on TS and is that the actual stressor?  Or something we haven't even thought of.  I wish we knew.

I expect they can both see each other.  Falcons have exceptional eyesight and can see several km out and they are very aware of who is near their territory as their survival depends on it.  In our case here - I've been up on the roof and you can see Jack's other site from here so no doubt in my mind that Angel is aware of TR Mom and that Jack goes over there.  Also last year when Milton (TR mom's previous male) was released from rehab and came back..and got into it with Jack..both Angel and TR Mom came to his defence, each in their respective territories of course but it was like one fight with each female joining in as soon as it spilled over into their respective territory.  

I was stunned that TR Mom didn't welcome her old mate back, everyone told me she would - even several biologists based on on historic knowledge and yet she actually attacked Milton herself.  Now whether that was because of the timing - her and Jack's eggs were due to hatch in days and she was concerned with protecting her offspring is something that could definitely be a factor.  In the other cases, the previous mates were released prior to nesting season so that might definitely had alot to do with them accepting back a familiar mate.

In my conversations with one biologist - she told me that the females likely were only concerned with whether or not the tiercel provided for them and their offspring and defended the territory with them.  In other words, as long as he had their back - they wouldn't care about another female sharing him as long as they stayed in their respective territories since they bind to the nest site.  However she also told me that she was very surprised that they tolerated it simply due to their protective nature and said there just isn't enough documented information about these types of situations.

ps: Thanks for tolerating all my musings, although I'm not a fan of the bigamous tiercel thing, I am curious as I have really no other situation to compare it with.  I know you aren't 100% yet as to what is going on here but if it turns out to be - at least we will have 2 documented situations and we can compare notes.

I haven't read Carols blog yet but remember that is how Beauty got downtown. She was on the PC and then she came and displaced Mariah. I'm sure she can probably see Lady P if not all the time then when she is hunting. the watchers have reported off an on a falcon being escorted out of the area (is this Lady?) Archer probably followed her back to KP does he consider this part of his territory? Maybe its where he hunts. Hmm as the falcon world turns. or is is Pefa Place


Carly just read your post could it be the fact that males seem to be in shortage?

(Poor Milton)

Thanks for the additional info, carly.  I was actually going to ask if you could do that since the info on CPF is in "soundbite" morsels.  Do you have any more details on Wind/Windwhistler/Mandy?  I know at first Windwhistler had another name, Spike, since it wasn't apparent it was the same bird.  And I know Tiago hatched to him & Mandy at King St.  Other than that, I'm a bit sketchy.

Believe me-we're ALL musing all the variables.  One other musing of mine is...was bigamy in wild PeFas common before the population was decimated?  Are we seeing "normal" behavior for a healthy population?  

@BC-I think I might have read somewhere that there are more females than males. Perhaps someone else has more info at their fingertips.

As the Scrape Turns...at FalconCrest!

When it first happened, my thought was a shortage of tiercels as well.  However having seen Jack personally escort several tiercels out of the territory the past 2 years...I have to wonder if not's the 'territory' thing.  You know, the bigger the better...perhaps like some other male species... :rofl:

Dumpster Kitty:  Something actually came to me last night since you mentioned Windwhistler ..actually at about 2 am in the morning after I saw some of your chat on the live cam about them all being Canadian. 

Windwhistler:  Born here at Etobicoke (Jack's current site) to Alberta - who although she was hatched in Alberta was fostered at the Hamilton nest and grew up there.

Jack: Born in Missauga..to Sal who coincidently was born at the Hamilton nest site to Madame X and a previous mate. 

Archer: Born in Port Colbourn - 12 miles from the Hamilton nest site.

Why does that bother me?  Maybe because Hamilton is/was a steel town, lots of industrial history   12 miles isn't far and easily if parents/offspring hunted in those areas, could they have been exposed to something that has affected their behaviour?  Chemicals perhaps in the environment/water?

What are the odds that three tiercels - are exhibiting rare behaviour and they all have a small radius in common in their backgrounds?  Maybe I'm grasping but it's bugging me....

The only thing I can say to that is industrial towns seem to be a fairly common scrape location.  Probably because in their heyday the industrialists built the tallest buildings with nooks & crannies.

I personally suspect the Canadian thing is more that the nest sites seem to me to be very close to each other.  Perhaps the tiercels are thinking-my territory is X, there's another scrape within X, so that's my scrape too. 

I've always had a tickle in my brain that KP might be too close to TS for comfortable separation of territory, visually if not by distance. 

Good points, I think I've been watching too much TV..looking for conspiracy theories  :laugh:

I think it would be good to start one place to discuss what we know and don't know about what's happening at Times Square and Kodak Park.  If the moderators think some of the other discussion would be better placed here, or this somewhere else, please feel free to move things around.

The question on all our minds today: How long will a peregrine egg remain viable if not incubated full time?  Facts that we know...

--In a "normal" schedule 5 egg clutch it can be 10-12 days before hard incubation begins.  In the rare 6 egg clutch, it will be longer.

--Then there's the story of Scout in Columbus OH 2008.  I can't tell the story better than Donna Daniels of the ODNR:

Well, after a delay of 8 days Scout has produced egg #2! Or, is it egg #1 after re-cycling? I can't say for sure which category it would technically fall into without looking through reference material but the bottom line is another egg was laid Sunday, April 6 about 7:13 p.m!! And, as of this morning Scout appears to be in incubating posture. Only by observation will we be able to determine if true incubation has started. If she does stay tight on the eggs from this point on we'll have to wait for a mate change to note if any additional eggs appear in the coming days. I know a lot of anxious Falconcam Fans are breathing a sigh of relief with the latest turn of events that put things toward more "normal" behavior that we have been anticipating! Let's hope that nesting goes full steam ahead from this point! And, if we end up with a hatch next month, it will be interesting to note if that 1st egg hatches or not. If you look close there is a difference in pigmentation of the two eggs--the first egg is much lighter and duller in appearance.

In the end, 4 total eggs were laid and all 4 eggs hatched and all 4 eyases were healthy and fledged normally.  And I will just point out a factoid-Scout was in her second breeding year that year.

--And the last for right now is the story of Tasha2, Louie & Dori at Gulf Towers Pittsburgh, PA 2010.

Tasha2 was the resident female with Louie.  She laid 2 eggs 03/17 & 03/19.  She was then displaced by Dori.  Bonding commenced and Dori laid 3 more eggs beginning 04/02.  Tasha's eggs were completely exposed and unincubated for +/- 3 weeks.  Dori didn't start incubating them at first-Louie kept pushing them into the pile & she'd push them out.  She finally did incubate all 5 and all 5 hatched.  One egg was noticeable for it's color-it was 50 days old when it hatched.  All 5 eyases were healthy. 

That's what I have for now. 

(OOPS!  :paperbag: must get back to work)

Margaret we are quiet because we too are trying to figure out things. We don't want to speculate and get it wrong. We know Archer is visiting Lady Pefa. As far as the rest of it your guess is as good as ours. This is all new for everyone in Rochester and we will all learn together. I suspect Beauty knows(my opinion) however CarolP told me that because she does have an egg her instincts are to stay close and guard it. I don't want to step on any toes here since I am relatively new to this so I will let the veteran watchers do the lions share of explaining.  ;D

I spotted this note from Carla P in the Falconwatch responses.  Copying it over-I often forget to look there for comments...

Carla P Says:
April 9th, 2011 at 7:47 PM

Hello all!
I’ve been lurking for far too long, but I’ve been paying attention to the situation and have some thoughts. At first I was comparing Archer to Clark Kent; whenever Superman appeared, Clark was nowhere to be found!!! Two falcons at KP, one falcon at the NB. Hmmmmm………
When I read that no copulation had been witnessed between Archer and Lady PeFa, I recalled an afternoon spent on the pedestrian bridge after Mariah had returned from Rehab. Carol P. and I were there all afternoon, watching Mariah sleep on the gorge wall, and watching Archer watch Mariah. Remember Carol? Clearly Archer was trying to keep Mariah away from Beauty. So for now, I’m voting for Archer the protector, NOT Archer the two-timer! And right on cue - EGG # 2!!!

Okay, I'm "out-ting" Archer.  I'm not sure what chat, or Fb or texts are saying, I know I haven't seen it here , but yesterday, I couldn't take the "speculation" anymore.  So despite end of marking period pressure, I drove up to TS and KP after school.  Quiet as a mouse DT.     I was first lost at KP, but ended up in right place. 
At 5:30 Friday evening -- last night -- I saw two Pefas -- assuming it was LP and our Archer --copulating on "railing"    of "left-most" still at KP.  Looking at Carol's pics this morning, I can now identify it as western-most still at KP.   It's not the tallest, but I was parked in road right in front of it, and pulled out my binocs. 
So is Archer protecting Beauty and NB  or is he raising two families?  The only good thing I can think of is that it is spreading Mariah and Kaver's gene pool...and that's a good thing.

  :wave:  Carla I'm happy to hear from you. I hope we see you tomorrow, it's been a LONG time!  ;D

I hadn't heard of anyone seeing them copulating before.  But it's been witnessed now, so...if it is Archer, yes, more good genes being shared.  I guess we'll find out in due time if there's another set of eyases!

Well, I've been told my whole life that I'm too trusting and far too willing to give everyone (PeFas included, I guess) the benefit of the doubt.  So Archer's a Don Juan, but then...
maybe he's only cheating on Beauty to keep Lady PeFa content and out of downtown! True altruism!!!
 :hysterical:  

FWB  :gum:

isn't Beauty from pittsburgh, just like Tasha2???? 

Beauty did hatch in Pittsburgh at the Cathedral of Learning.  I'm not sure where Tasha2 hatched.  She was nesting at Gulf Towers Pittsburgh.

maybe it's just canadians (peregrines that is) acting badly