Kestrel Cam at Iroquois NWR

[Kris G.]

http://newyorkwild.org/kestrel/kestrel.htm

The image isn't very good but there are now 3 eggs!

[~Sage~]

I'm glad you started this thread!  We visit Iroquois frequently but of course you can see more inside the nest by watching the cam.

[Kris G.]

We go there frequently too, Sage. In fact, we were there yesterday watching the Eagles at their nest site!

[Kris G.]

Saw the eggs today.

[nwfloridafalconfan]

From thefreedictionary.com:

ref·uge  (rfyj)
n.
1. Protection or shelter, as from danger or hardship.
2. A place providing protection or shelter.
3. A source of help, relief, or comfort in times of trouble.

The upcoming Iroquois NWR Youth Spring Turkey Hunt seems to contradict the refuge concept (at least for the turkeys.) 

[Kris G.]

From thefreedictionary.com:

ref·uge  (rfyj)
n.
1. Protection or shelter, as from danger or hardship.
2. A place providing protection or shelter.
3. A source of help, relief, or comfort in times of trouble.

The upcoming Iroquois NWR Youth Spring Turkey Hunt seems to contradict the refuge concept (at least for the turkeys.) 

Why are Hunting, Fishing and Trapping Allowed on National Wildlife Refuges?


Hunting, trapping and fishing are considered by many to be a legitimate, traditional recreational use of renewable natural resources. The National Wildlife Refuge System Administration Act of 1966, other laws, and the Fish and Wildlife Service's policy permit hunting on a national wildlife refuge when it is compatible with the purposes for which the refuge was established and acquired.

National wildlife refuges exist primarily to safeguard wildlife populations through habitat preservation. The word "refuge" includes the idea of providing a haven of safety for wildlife, and as such, hunting might seem an inconsistent use of the National Wildlife Refuge System (Refuge System). However, habitat that normally supports healthy wildlife populations produces harvestable surpluses that are a renewable resource.

As practiced on refuges, hunting, trapping and fishing do not pose a threat to the wildlife populations, and in some instances, are actually necessary for sound wildlife management. For example, deer populations will often grow too large for the refuge habitat to support. If some of the deer are not harvested, they destroy habitat for themselves and other animals and die from starvation or disease. The harvesting of wildlife on refuges is carefully regulated to ensure an equilibrium between population levels and wildlife habitat.

The decision to permit hunting, trapping and fishing on national wildlife refuges is made on a case-by-case basis that considers biological soundness, economic feasibility, effects on other refuge programs, and public demand.

[valhalla]

Like it or not, the herds and flocks must be thinned.  Over population and starvation are horrible options.  Coming from a family of hunters, I firmly believe that the hunters and outdoorsmen really care about the herds and want healthy ones.  Thining the herd is part of the process.

[Patti from Kentucky]

Like it or not, the herds and flocks must be thinned.  Over population and starvation are horrible options.  Coming from a family of hunters, I firmly believe that the hunters and outdoorsmen really care about the herds and want healthy ones.  Thining the herd is part of the process.

When we were in Yellowstone last year for our winter wolf-watching trip, our guide was talking about some of the wildlife management issues they have (not necessarily inside the park, but in the surrounding national forest land, where hunting is allowed).  She said that one of the differences is that natural predators of elk, for example, wolves, mountain lions, and bears will generally strengthen the herd by taking the old, the weak, the sick, the slow, etc., but that human hunters (not so much the folks hunting for food, but the trophy hunters going for the biggest antlered bucks), who have the advantage of technology, can take the biggest, healthiest animals, which is very bad for the herds. 

So...I just thought the issue was an interesting one, especially in areas where there are not natural predators and human hunting is almost required (for example, to control white-tailed deer populations)...how do you "thin" a herd without causing natural selection to work in the wrong direction?

[valhalla]

Like it or not, the herds and flocks must be thinned.  Over population and starvation are horrible options.  Coming from a family of hunters, I firmly believe that the hunters and outdoorsmen really care about the herds and want healthy ones.  Thining the herd is part of the process.

So...I just thought the issue was an interesting one, especially in areas where there are not natural predators and human hunting is almost required (for example, to control white-tailed deer populations)...how do you "thin" a herd without causing natural selection to work in the wrong direction?

Big difference betweens the trophey hunters and the traditional hunter who is killing for meat.  The trophey guy wants the big score, whereas the hunter wants to feed his family, which means you take a good shot and don't worry about the score.  This makes the guy/gal out in the woods looking for meat no different than any other predator who is looking for dinner.  This hunter doesn't waste meat either (think sausage etc.).  

Then we have this:
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/local/ap/sharpshooters-take-aim-to-cull-outsize-deer-herd-in-md-national-park-surrounding-camp-david-83278207.html

The 200 -300 deer went to the Maryland Food Bank (at least they weren't wasted), but 3 sharpshooters for crying out loud, THAT isn't hunting - that is carnival stuff!

[Tokira]

Like it or not, the herds and flocks must be thinned.  Over population and starvation are horrible options.  Coming from a family of hunters, I firmly believe that the hunters and outdoorsmen really care about the herds and want healthy ones.  Thinning the herd is part of the process.

Many states have programs such as Hunters for the Hungry: http://www.h4hungry.org/
This is particularly effective in states where there are way too many deer, and way too many hungry people.
Carol
WV

[Kris G.]

Kestrels have 4 eggs!

[~Sage~]

Yea!  Four eggs!

Re:  thinning the herd for the good of the herd
I've heard the explanations.  But if it's so good for the animal world, I wonder why this method isn't used for the human herds.

[Bird Crazy]

Yea!  Four eggs!

Re:  thinning the herd for the good of the herd
I've heard the explanations.  But if it's so good for the animal world, I wonder why this method isn't used for the human herds.

It has been, look at history. Problem is those who choose the ones to be thinned do not usually choose wisely.

[valhalla]

Yea!  Four eggs!

Re:  thinning the herd for the good of the herd
I've heard the explanations.  But if it's so good for the animal world, I wonder why this method isn't used for the human herds.

It has been, look at history. Problem is those who choose the ones to be thinned do not usually choose wisely.

My kind answer is to read Adam Smith's, The Wealth of Nations published in 1775 - it's been going on since the begining of time.

[Kris G.]

The Kestrel's been sitting on 5 eggs but today it looks like there might be a hatch or two.